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Does Belief in Effectual Grace Make God's Universal Call of the Gospel a Deception?

"All that the Father gives to Me will come to me..." (John 6:37)

VISITOR: This means He gives the ones whom he knows will come. I used to be a Calvinist, so I know all the philosophical reasonings that go on.

RESPONSE: You said, "He gives the ones whom he knows will come". UMM, Who is using philosophical reasoning here? These are YOUR words, not the Texts. You added them. And you do it as if you really believe its okay to do that. That is called self-deception. You are playing with fire by adding your own words to the Bible in order to to fit it to your viewpoint. Again, Jesus said, "ALL" (not some), of those the Father gives him will come [to faith] in Him...the giving of the Father to Him precedes their coming to faith in Him.

In addition, God is very sincere in calling us to what we OUGHT to do, even if we cannot ... because we will not ... the fault is ours because we are captive to our own sin. He is not coercing people or holding them back. They run from God because they love darkness and hate the light (John 3:19, 20)

VISITOR: Calvinists makes God insincere and deceptive- God commands all men everywhere to repent, yet made no plans to make the atonement for most and never had any intention of giving faith to most. That's like me inviting all my neighbors to a big party, but only making enough food for my next door neighbor because I never really planned on my whole neighborhood coming and never made food provisions for the entire neighborhood. Ridiculous, to say the least.

RESPONSE: Really? is it insincere for God to call us to do what we OUGHT to do? Its not like people are fighting to get in the kingdom ... and God is certainly not holding anyone back or coercing them to sin. Fallen men do so most willingly. Men are condemned because they are WILLING rebels. He calls all of them to repentance and faith sincerely, and they sincerely reject Him. Why is that?  The apostle Paul says that the purpose of God's commands are not to show how able we are to obey Him, but to reveal our willing sin against him (e.g.. our inability) and our desperate need of grace:

"Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin." - Rom 3:19-20

According to your own logic about insincerity, then, if you borrowed $5 million to fund a new company and squandered it instead at the horse races, if you were unable to repay the bank for the money you borrowed, you would no longer be responsible for it. In real life, your inability to repay a debt to the bank does NOT alleviate you of responsibility to do so. Likewise, regarding our sin-debt in Adam, our inability to repay it does not get us off the hook, as you seem to indicate. God is HOLY HOLY HOLY and when humans fell in Adam God does not accommodate to our sin but remains holy and gives us commands to perfectly obey him even though we are morally impotent to do so. He does not lower his standard for us. It is what we OUGHT to do. Don't blame God for man's willful rebellion. If He chooses to save anyone therefore it is an act of mercy and if he leaves people to their own so called "free will" it is justice. The later get what they want and what they deserve.

Your accusation also shoots itself in the foot. If Jesus has exhaustive foreknowledge (as you acknowledge) about who would be saved BEFORE He went to the cross (predestination or not), then then He already knew beforehand with absolute certainty who would, and who would not, come to faith in Him. Therefore, according to your own logic, any call to believe the gospel to those who Jesus knows will never come to Him is insincere. You are accusing others of doing the very thing you yourself believe. Therefore, your incoherent logic fatally destroys your own argument in a hopeless contradiction.

"The Spirit quickens, the flesh counts for nothing ... that is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me grants it." (John 6:63, 65)

Thu, 07/28/2016 - 15:28 -- john_hendryx

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