Donahue for Aug. 20, 2002 Guests: Albert Mohler, Shmuley
Boteach, Michael Brown
Read the complete transcript to Tuesday’s show
Guests: Albert Mohler, Shmuley Boteach, Michael Brown, Don Teague, Mort
Zuckerman, James Zogby, Randy Cohen
PHIL DONAHUE, HOST: Good evening and welcome to DONAHUE. Coming up later in the
show, Martha Stewart turned over documents to the House panel today. We’ll talk
to the ethicist for “The New York Times” magazine, who addresses America’s
morals in decline. What do you think? We’ll also take a look at how the Middle
East is being used in the fight for congressional seats, right here in this
country. But first up, “Newsweek” is talking about it, so is the “Boston
Globe.” Heaven, hell, who’s going and who’s not? And last week, according to a
statement issued by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Jews no longer
have to be saved to get into heaven. So now all we have to do is convince the
southern Baptists. Joining me are radio talk show host Rabbi Shmuley Boteach.
Dr. Michael Brown is president of an organization known as Israel, the Church
and the Nation Ministries. And from Louisville, Kentucky, Dr. Albert Mohler
Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Well, Dr. Mohler, sir,
nice to see you again. You’re how many strong these days, the southern
Baptists?
REV. ALBERT MOHLER, SOUTHERN BAPTIST MINISTER: About 16 million members, Phil,
and about 40,000 churches. It’s good to be with you tonight.
DONAHUE: Thank you. Do these 16 million people believe Jews can go to heaven?
MOHLER: Southern Baptists, with other Christians, believe that all persons can
go to heaven who come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And there is no
discrimination on the basis of ethnic or racial or national issues, related to
who will go to the Scriptures. It’s those who are in Christ. The defining issue
is faith in Christ.
DONAHUE: So a good Jew is not going to heaven.
MOHLER: Well, all persons are sinners in need of a savior. Jesus Christ is the
sole mediator. And the gospel, we are told by the Apostle Paul, comes first to
the Jews and then to the gentiles. And salvation is found in his name, and in
his name alone, through faith in Christ.
DONAHUE: So if a Nazi killed a Jew, a good Jew, practicing Jew, the Jew goes to
hell, but the Nazi still has a chance to get to heaven. That would be the
consequence of your position.
MOHLER: Well, the gospel is not just for the worst of us. The gospel is for all
of us. And the scripture tells us the hard truth, that all have sinned. And
that Nazi guard is going to be punished for his sin, and it will be judged as
sin. His only hope would be the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. And
the profound truth of the gospel is that the salvation that can come to any
person who comes to faith in Christ-can come to that Jew who was killed and to
that guard who does the killing. That’s the radical nature of the gospel.
DONAHUE: Well, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is with us. You’re author of “Judaism For
Everyone.” You know, Reverend Mohler, this is such a vast organization. You
have so many wonderful members. This just breeds anti-Semitism. I am sorry. You
cannot possibly look a person in the eye and say, if you don’t come to Jesus,
if you don’t change your faith, you’re not going to heaven. Reeks of prejudice,
and also stirs the soul to evil behavior, in my opinion.
MOHLER: Well, if the church had just come up with this in the 20th century as a
novel idea, perhaps it should be subjected to such a critique. But this is the
gospel that has been received from the Lord Jesus Christ himself, who said he came,
first of all, for the people and children of Israel, and then also for the
gentiles. And he himself declared that he is the way, the truth and the light,
and no man comes to the Father but through him. He spoke as a man born of the
Jewish race, but who was also the son of God.
DONAHUE: Well, three cheers for the Catholic bishops. And it’s been a while
since anybody has given them cheers. Well, Rabbi, it took us long enough, but
we are no longer calling upon our faithful, Catholic faithful, to evangelize
and convert the Jews. Praise the lord for that, whichever lord may be your
favorite.
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, AUTHOR, “JUDAISM FOR EVERYONE”: Amen. John Paul II is
one of the great friends of the Jewish people. Christians are our brothers and
sisters, but they have to finally acknowledge that there is a 2,000-year
repulsive, malignant history of the church, of trying to spiritually annihilate
Jews by removing every last Jew on the face of the earth and converting them to
Christianity and Jesus. And Reverend Mohler, however intelligent of a scholar
he may be, he is a spiritual Neanderthal with repulsive, revolting views.
Because we know in history that Christian, anti-Judaism has always led to
racial anti-Semitism. This is the modern equivalent, Phil, of spiritual
terrorism. You know, I have something to read here, which is possibly
unbelievable, written by my colleague sitting to my left. “How then should we
view the state of those Jews and gentiles who have never heard about the
messiah and savior? We should see them as people about to get on a plane we
know will soon crash.” Now, it’s remotely possible one or two will survive, but
the vast majority are going to die. If you’re a Jew who rejects Jesus, you’re
going to die!
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Go ahead.
BOTEACH: Now, you would think that we just would have progressed to some sort
of racial harmony and tolerance, especially after September 11.
DONAHUE: Doctor-you speak of Dr. Michael Brown, president of ICN ministries.
Well, Dr. Brown, sir, you were born a Jew, raised by, I understand, liberal
Jewish parents on Long Island?
MICHAEL BROWN, JEWISH BELIEVER IN CHRIST: That’s right.
DONAHUE: Do they survive, your parents?
BROWN: My dad died in 1977, my mom is turning 80.
DONAHUE: She’s got to be broken-hearted.
BROWN: She’s sitting right now watching this and rooting for me.
DONAHUE: She is?
BROWN: Oh, yes.
DONAHUE: You converted her to Christianity?
BROWN: My goal is not to convert Jews to Christianity. My goal is to get Jews,
gentiles, to recognize who Jesus is. See, there is something that Shmuley said
that’s so wild and so preposterous. Listen: “Jesus came as a Jew to fulfill
what was written in ‘Moses and the Prophets.’” If he did it, Jews should
believe in him. If not, throw the whole thing out. If Jesus is not for Jews,
he’s not for anybody. The whole thing is a mockery. And what about Hindus?
Should we not preach to Hindus because they have to change their faith? What
about Muslims?
DONAHUE: Yes, what about them? Did Gandhi go to heaven?
BROWN: I’m not Gandhi’s judge, but if Gandhi rejected Jesus, he’s not good
enough to get in. You’re not good enough, I’m not good enough. We need help. We
need salvation.
DONAHUE: And I think you’re suggesting that the rabbi should be grateful that
somebody is trying to bring Jesus to him? Do I understand your position?
BROWN: Listen, I’ve written extensively about the horrible history of
anti-Semitism in the church. That’s a complete aberration. Just like Goldstein
killing Muslims is an aberration of Judaism, OK? And someone once said that the
9/11 bombers, some Muslims would say that’s an aberration of Islam.
DONAHUE: But you’re telling Jews they’re not going to heaven.
BROWN: I’m telling Hindus, I’m telling gentiles, I’m telling Catholics, I’m
telling Protestants...
BOTEACH: He’s an equal-opportunity offender. You know, if Jesus were alive
today, I think he would take Reverend Mohler and Dr. Brown to court for
character assassination. They took the prince of peace and made him into the torturer
in chief. They took someone who was supposed to redeem, you know, the world,
and made him someone who demeans mankind. They have made Jesus into someone who
sits in the heavens as some sort of blackmailer in chief-I’m going to torture
you, fry you in a wok, murder you, all because you don’t believe in me,
irrespective of how you behave, Phil. And that’s an abomination.
DONAHUE: Yes. You also have God kind of being an egomaniac. You’d better pray
to me or I’ll show you what trouble really is. I don’t see God as a Santa Claus
who rewards good and punishes evil. It seems to me, your position, Dr. Mohler,
is very unfair to God.
MOHLER: Well, all I know is that God’s word, the scripture, tells us the
authoritative message about who God is and what he would intend, and this issue
of a one, true and living god. And one way of salvation didn’t even wait for
Jesus in the New Testament. God declared this to Moses in the covenant at
Sinai. He spoke very much about the fact that there was an order, to have no
gods before him. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of that law.
DONAHUE: Right. More on heaven and hell, when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DONAHUE: We are talking about heaven and hell, who’s going, who’s not. My
guests are Michael Brown, who was raised Jewish and now calls himself a
Christian and works to, how do we say this, convert the Jews? Also Shmuley
Boteach is here, a rabbi. And Albert Mohler has been introduced for what he is,
the president of the Southern Baptists Theological Convention. Well, I have to
say, gentlemen, the statement by the Catholic bishops, the U.S. Catholic
Bishops’ conference, saying that they will-Catholics should no longer try to
evangelize Jewish people, is a huge story that I thought got very little
attention. It really is the brotherhood, sisterhood that we’re looking for all
around the globe. I’ll respect your religion, Reverend Mohler, if you respect
mine. But please don’t tell me that you know what’s good for me. There’s an
arrogance to that. And if you suggest that you’re going to heaven and I’m not,
you’re going to feel better than me. You’re up here and I’m down here, and this
is the beginning of the Crusades, of all the terrible things that have-more
havoc in the name of the prince of peace than anybody else on earth. You’re on
the air, Reverend Mohler.
MOHLER: Well, all I know is that the only way to heaven is through Jesus
Christ, and that all who are there come by his grace and mercy alone. There is
nothing in us to merit salvation. And so humility has to be the Christian
posture.
DONAHUE: There is nothing humble about telling me I’m going to heaven if I
don’t believe in Jesus. That is not humility. That’s arrogance.
MOHLER: It would be if this was our message. But if that is what the son of God
said himself, if that is the truth, then it would be hateful and it would be
intolerant not to tell you what we believe to be the truth. I can’t compel any
person to believe in Christ, but I do have the responsibility, with gladness
and joy, to share the good news of the gospel, knowing that all who believe in
the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved, whether Jew or gentile.
BOTEACH: Reverend Mohler, are you allowed to think? Because you sound like a
broken record. You have been repeating this mantra since the show started. Now,
does your religion allow for independent thought? Are you allowed to have a
heart? Can you feel for people? Do you know that Jews have been turned into
lamp shades and bars of soap and ashes? We’ve been stuffed into ghettos. We’ve
been burned at the state because of your repulsive, nauseating views. When are
you going to finally allow your humanity to shine forth through your
Christianity? Because you are becoming...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Rabbi...
BOTEACH: You are showing such revolting views, you are a liability to
Christianity.
DONAHUE: Let’s let Dr. Brown make his case here, please. You joined us late. I
say respectfully, you’re a nice Jewish boy from Long Island.
BROWN: I’m still Jewish.
DONAHUE: And your mother survives today. You tell us she’s 80.
BROWN: Yes.
DONAHUE: And you’re trying to convert all your Jewish friends to Christianity.
BROWN: No, I’m not.
BOTEACH: He’s lonely!
BROWN: I’m not. There are tens of thousands of us.
BOTEACH: What do you need us for?
BROWN: Because I love you and I care about you.
BOTEACH: You love me so I have to be like you? Does your wife have to put on
trousers and a jock strap because you love her too? Do I have to be, like, a
Nazi blonde-haired, blue-eyed, in order for you to love me?
DONAHUE: Dr. Brown...
BROWN: Let me say this rationally.
DONAHUE: Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... you know better than that. Listen, very simply, you want to respect
my faith? The core of my faith is that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world,
and we have to go tell everybody. It’s like me telling you, I respect your
political views but you can’t be liberal. I respect you being a Jew, but you
can’t believe in one god. To tell me you respect my faith but I can’t tell
anyone-that’s the whole thing of it, is to tell the good news. There’s a way
out.
DONAHUE: You can tell me about it. But you can’t stand there righteously and
tell me you know what’s good for me. And you sure as hell can’t tell me that
there’s only one way for me to get to heaven. Nobody is that smart, nobody.
BROWN: You tell people every day your views, what’s good for America.
DONAHUE: But I don’t insist they believe in them.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: ... burn in hell, for goodness’ sake! He doesn’t say that there’s a
god who’s going to subject them to eternal punishment for being a conservative
or a Republican, for goodness’ sake. You’re saying that we are the enemies of
God. That we Jews have the mark of Satan branded on us because we rejected...
BROWN: I’m not saying that.
BOTEACH: Of course you are! Your book is replete with anti-Semitic stereotypes.
The Jews are rebellious, the Jews are going to be punished. The Jews have
always been punished. You even... BROWN: Those are the words of the prophets...
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: You even insinuate that the Holocaust, that Hitler was a messenger of
God to punish us for the rejection of Jesus. And that is nauseating and
stomach-turning, for goodness’ sake. DONAHUE: I think we ought to...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: You wanted to say? Well, Reverend Mohler, you’re engaging in a little
humility yourself. We appreciate your allowing us to have the time here. You’re
first when we come back.
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Reverend Mohler, hold on a second. You’re first. We have to do some of
Caesar’s work here. And we’ll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DONAHUE: We’re back, talking about heaven and hell, who’s going, who’s not.
When I get there, I’m looking for all three of you. You’ll be the first ones
I’m looking for. We are with Michael Brown, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach and Albert
Mohler. Well, I promised you, Reverend Mohler, president of the Southern
Baptist Theological Seminary, you’d get the first shot. What is it you wanted
to say, sir?
MOHLER: Well, Mr. Donahue, I want to say, first of all, I want to thank you for
giving time to such an important question. But I want to speak to the rabbi and
say that, in humility, you need to know that I am fully aware that neither the
Roman Catholic bishops nor the leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention have
any power to send any soul to heaven or to hell. The question comes down to
what the gospel really is. And what you assaulted in your language there is
classical Christianity, as taught by the apostles and handed down by the church.
I believe that God has a distinctive purpose for the Jewish people, and the
Christians are called to be friends to all. And especially to the Jewish people
with sense of indebtedness. At the same time, we are to bear witness to the
gospel, believing that God is going to do a remarkable thing in bringing many,
many Jewish persons to faith in Christ, just as my brother Michael is, there in
the studio with you.
DONAHUE: OK, Rabbi?
BOTEACH: Reverend Mohler, with all due respect, you are guilty of nailing Jesus
to the cross. You have nailed him to the cross of intolerance, of racism, of
spiritual Nazism. You are disgracing your church through your utter
condemnation of perfectly moral, ethical people. The Jewish community is
righteous and charitable. Stop telling us we’re going to go to hell. And you
know nothing about Jesus. He was a Jew. Stop making him into an anti-Semite.
You are the one who’s tarred him with the brush of people who hate his own
people. If Jesus were alive today, he would shed more blood when he sees the
suffering of the Jews at the hands of intolerant Christians like yourself. You
should be ashamed of yourself and it’s time that you finally change. Because
this is an embarrassment.
DONAHUE: You wanted to say, Dr. Brown?
BROWN: Let me say that Dr. Mohler was exactly right, represented Jesus the Jew
plainly. You see, Jesus knew that there’s a coming judgment. You know, someone
commits a crime in this world, we think it’s good that there are judges and
courts. We’re going to be accountable for our actions, every one of us.
DONAHUE: Incidentally, you probably believe in original sin, don’t you?
BROWN: Not in the way the Catholic Church would teach it. But we’re a fallen
race. We’re a fallen race.
DONAHUE: What’s the fall? I’m born, I’m innocent, and I’ve got an original sin?
I fell? How can I fall?
BROWN: We’re a messed-up race.
DONAHUE: Messed up. All right.
BROWN: Look at the state of the world. Look at the state of the Middle East.
Look at the state-from ethnic cleansing to genocide...
DONAHUE: But how did this happen to you, Dr. Brown? We should know more about
Jesus. This is interesting. Were you bar mitzvahed?
BROWN: Yes, I was.
DONAHUE: And you’re married?
BROWN: Yes, I am.
DONAHUE: Did you marry a shiksa?
BROWN: My wife is a Jewish believer in Jesus, like me.
DONAHUE: A Jewish believer in Jesus.
BROWN: Here’s what happened...
BOTEACH: Somewhere in the middle.
BROWN: I was 16 years old, playing drums in a rock band. And the whole
counterculture, rebellion scene, heavily into drugs. I just wanted to live an
immoral, godless lifestyle. I was shooting heroin at 15. And Christians were
kind enough to pray for me and put up with my nonsense until the light went on.
And my life was radically changed. Was that a good thing, or should I be back
shooting heroin?
BOTEACH: Well, that’s a good question. Are you better off shooting heroin or
believing that Hitler was an agent of god to punish the Jews for rejecting
Christ? I’m not sure.
BROWN: I never said or wrote that, Shmuley.
BOTEACH: You absolutely say in your book that God punished the Jews of the
Holocaust for rejecting Jesus. And you said the Jewish grandmothers were all
sitting there. I’d like to believe my grandmother has a knish in heaven
somewhere, but unfortunately she’s in the barbecue.
DONAHUE: Jewish grandmothers go to you-know-what? They go down, not up, huh?
BROWN: Jewish, gentiles grandmothers, grandfathers, are not good enough without
Jesus.
DONAHUE: Only seconds left, Reverend Mohler. I thank you for joining us. Did
you want to sign off with an amen or a mazal tov? It’s up to you.
MOHLER: I appreciate my brother Michael’s witness. All I know is to repeat the
words said by a Jewish man who came to know the Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle
Peter. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God,
the salvation to all who believe. To the Jews first, and also to the gentiles.